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19 August 2003 @ 11:42 pm
Is being cruel to be kind - in the right measure - a very good sign?  
It is amazing to me that so many people seem to believe that being in love means some amount of hate must be involved. You know the cliche I'm talking about - they argue, fight, scream and then fall kicking and biting into TWWWUUUEEEE LUUUBBBBEEE and suddenly, it's all sunshine and roses.

Yeah, sure.

Has that ever happened to anyone in real life? I really rather doubt it. If someone drove me insane by being a complete asshat, why exactly would I want to spend more time with that person? And if that jerk is treatly me like crap, why would I even put up with it? How does that change from "moron" to "dreamboat" happen? I just can't see it. It's not practical, it's not realistic, and frankly, it's not pleasant. I cringe when I read about it; I wince when I see it on TV or the big screen. Yes, little kids who have crushes will pick on their crush - but that is a sign of immaturity - they don't know how to express what they're feeling. Why would people want to read/watch/etc a story about other people caught in arrested emotional development? I'm not saying that people who love each other never argue, but what I am saying is that love can't be built on arguments alone. Real passion does not come from detesting someone.

If you have a true story of this sort of situation working, do let me know. Otherwise, I will continue to operate on my educated opinion that this is nothing but a worn-out cliche.

This seemingly out-of-nowhere rant brought to you by Nick Lowe and a night of reading fanfic. Keeping me away from both in the future... most likely impossible, but viewer discretion is advised.
I feel: restlessrestless
I hear: Cruel to Be Kind - Nick Lowe
TAKE A CHANCE YOU STUPID HOE.sincelastjuly on August 19th, 2003 10:09 pm (UTC)
Which is part of the reason why I can't really see Ron/Hermione. :P
But anyway, I don't understand it either.
Vicki: Ron by Marta!hermorrine on August 19th, 2003 10:23 pm (UTC)
But... but...

Oh bloody hell. *facepalms*
Skippy, the Pervy Evil Twin: Why Ron Rules!terig on August 19th, 2003 10:44 pm (UTC)
But of course Ron and Hermione have to get together...I mean, my icon states exactly why. How can she resist that?

Somehow though, I suspect Ron/Hermione is NOT who you had in mind with this post.
Vicki: Ron by Marta!hermorrine on August 20th, 2003 01:45 pm (UTC)
No, it isn't. Ron and Hermione are ultimately close friends - they just don't always agree with one another and haven't yet learned to communicate better. Draco/Hermione would be more what I'm referring to with this - where they truly detest one another.
NOM NOM NOM: Meggie goes wheeee!ladylisse on August 19th, 2003 10:40 pm (UTC)
Well, my crushes and I interact with each other by throwing beanbags at each other and putting each other in strangleholds. And then there's my mom and dad. They are pretty much opposites in the way they interact with people and the way they express their opinions, although they do share core values, and they argued a lot -- before and after they got together. They still argue. The thing is, over the past...oh, twenty years, I've watched those arguments fall into a kind of very practiced, not at all malicious pattern. I know that they started out as serious bickering since I was there, but now they've honed it to very well-timed, really quite funny snark. They've been together for over twenty years and are still very much in love with each other. They may disagree a lot, but they air things very quickly and once the occasional explosion is done, things are back to being your run-of-the-mill goofball household.

Dunno if that was the example you're looking for, and I agree that hate-to-love is cliched. I doubt it really exists much, or at least that it exists as something long-lasting. But arguing-to-love definitely does. If it didn't, I wouldn't be here. :D
Vickihermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 10:50 am (UTC)
Hmm, not exactly. I mean, did they hate each other in the beginning? I know what you're saying, though.
Skippy, the Pervy Evil Twin: Why Ron Rules!terig on August 19th, 2003 10:42 pm (UTC)
Oh Man!

Sorry, I read that and came up with Twue Lube and thought, um...true lube, is there fake stuff?

I know, I'm an t00b.

Of course, I do exactly what you are complaining about to justify Harry/Draco but I'm a bit of a wierdo that way. Strangely enough, I do not do this sort of silly plot device to get any other characters together. :P
Alextitanic_days on August 20th, 2003 02:25 am (UTC)
Re: Oh Man!
Alas, I thought the same thing, and got a mental image of some poor soul falling into a giant tub of Liquid Silk. Waah.
Vicki: Ebil!Morrihermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 10:51 am (UTC)
Re: Oh Man!
LOL I was trying to write out the vocalization of that guy in Three Weddings and a Funeral - I guess it didn't work too well.

And yeah, I realize that by writing Harry/Draco I've done it, too, but ... I suppose the difference is that I don't believe that would ever really happen. It's just fans' fantasy.
leiabelle: omg wtfleiabelle on August 19th, 2003 10:57 pm (UTC)
I love you, man. I don't get it either. >:D
Vicki: OMG!!!hermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 10:52 am (UTC)
I love you too man. >:D
the natural anthem: reading materialtocomfortyou on August 20th, 2003 12:35 am (UTC)
Hmm. It depends on whether or not you're talking about the utter loathing I see in H/D, or just a general dislike. Sometimes animosity can be developed realistically into attraction, it depends on the situation. I can't think of a good real-life example at the moment, but Much Ado About Nothing springs to mind. Spirited arguments can be a show of matched passions and a common level of intelligence, while name-calling and punching is just mindless animosity. It depends on how the authors portray the characters and their relationship (pre-TWU LUB).
Vicki: Sexxxehhermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 10:53 am (UTC)
I'm thinking more H/D. And I know I'm a hypocrite since I have written H/D, but still... not realistic I don't think.
the natural anthem: didn't know you had it in youtocomfortyou on August 22nd, 2003 01:38 pm (UTC)
*cackles* Eh, the whole fandom is based on a suspension of reality, it depends on how far you're willing to go. Some of us, like me, have no lasting connections with reality whatsoever. I read Draco/Lupin, folks.
That's what she said.altricial on August 20th, 2003 01:18 am (UTC)
I don't know, I need conflict to even be remotely interested in someone. I need the banters, the opposing views on things, the little insane quarrels, or I'll die from boredom. My favourite real couple is Mil Millingon and his psycho girlfriend :)) (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mil.millington/things.html)
Issy Starkias on August 20th, 2003 07:35 am (UTC)
Bickering, that's what we do and personally I'd rather bicker than not talk which is what some of out friends do. Agree with the Mil Millington comment - I've always enjoyed his column in The Guardian.
That's what she said.altricial on August 20th, 2003 08:44 am (UTC)
:O Are his columns on the site?
Issy Starkias on August 25th, 2003 09:24 am (UTC)
'Fraid not but if you do a search under 'archive search' at The Guardian for 'Things my girlfriend and I argue about' you can get a large number of his old columns. Unfortunately the column stopped last autumn.
That's what she said.altricial on August 25th, 2003 09:30 am (UTC)

Thank you!! *entertained for hours*
Vickihermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 11:05 am (UTC)
But what if you DO talk?
Issy Starkias on August 25th, 2003 09:20 am (UTC)
But we do talk, we talk a lot but we also bicker, mostly for fun but occasionally because we are irritated with each other. I meant that given the choice between not talking (and then having periodic huge arguments as some of our friends do) or bickering, I think it is more healthy to bicker on a daily basis.
Vicki: Ron by Marta!hermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 11:03 am (UTC)
I think you may be equating a lack of conflict with being boring, and I don't think that's necessarily accurate. I don't think anyone wants to be dating their twin and never disagree on anything, but I also don't think a relationship where you're constantly at one another's throats is realistic in the long term.
That's what she said.altricial on August 22nd, 2003 11:28 am (UTC)
Well not constantly, but I need a lot of, I don't know, I guess I enjoy the kiss and make up part more than most people. It is probably just me, because I don't really get the whole peaceful, lovey dovey relationship thing. The last relationship I was in was like that, and it bored the shit out of me, and I ended up flirting more and more with another person who would pick playful fights with me all the time and we would get so irritated with each other, then he'd do things like fly a paper aeroplane at me and we'll laugh and things will be fine, until the next banter. :))
wankersore on August 20th, 2003 03:10 am (UTC)
i have gone from hate to love.
Vickihermorrine on August 22nd, 2003 10:48 am (UTC)
Was it really hate?
wankersore on August 22nd, 2003 12:51 pm (UTC)
it was profound annoyance at the very least.
earthquake1906earthquake1906 on August 23rd, 2003 10:15 pm (UTC)
*winces* as you hit the nail on the head and wishes you a belated happy birthday
I do believe you're onto something here: the factors that make for a good relationship do not usually (in RL) grow out of mutual detestation.

And yup, this is one reason why good H/D is so hard to write. I really admire those who make it work. But one of the reasons I love that pairing (well or poorly written) is that it's so different from the way things work in RL.

Why I like reading about stuff that I wouldn't like living through: Simone Weil has a great rant about how in fiction, evil people and unpleasant situations are really interesting to read about, and happiness is kind of boring to read about (my paraphrase), whereas in RL it's the exact opposite, happiness is multifarious and complex and evil is dull and always the same. Gah, I wish I hadn't had that shot of Bailey's before I sat down at the computer, or this would possibly be more comprehensible...

Anyway, I agree with you and am enjoying your journal a lot. Don't worry about not writing us all back: it's most important to live one's LIFE, I always say. And did I mention, that I wish you a very happy belated birthday!

very best always / earthquake